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Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

From Cumulus MX version 3 build 3044 the development baton passed to Mark Crossley. Mark has been responsible for all the Builds since, and has recently released Cumulus MX version 4. He has made the code available on GitHub. It is Mark's hope that others will join in this development, but at the very least he welcomes your ideas for future developments (see Cumulus MX Development suggestions).

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Dador
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by Dador »

PaulMy wrote: Sat 07 Dec 2024 7:16 am @Dador,
I disagree. The Previous Snow lying "Yes" had no value with it. I have always entered 0.1 new snow if there was a noticed trace of snow in the 24 hours 8:00 am. And if there was more snow observed during the 24 hours but not lying at 8:00 am I would enter that amount as snowfall. I think this is as good, or better, than a "Yes" comment.
In the previous diary, the snowfall checkbox made perfect sense because it returned the argument 1 - "Yes" or 0 - "No". This created a valuable database in which a day with snowfall was defined.

Yes, currently you can use the snowfall24h field for this. However, I believe that entering even 0.1 cm there to indicate a day with snowfall will result in incorrect interpretation of the measurements.

In my area, fine snowfall from stratus clouds often occurs in winter. They do not form any cover, nor are they measurable by a heated rain gauge. However, despite everything, I would classify such a day as a day with snowfall.
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by HansR »

@Dador: if you can't measure it in the CMX context it is not of any use registering afaiac. Why is it important to register no snow? Why don't we do that all year round?
Hans

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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by freddie »

HansR wrote: Sun 08 Dec 2024 2:32 pm @Dador: if you can't measure it in the CMX context it is not of any use registering afaiac. Why is it important to register no snow? Why don't we do that all year round?
Some of us do. I register snow depth daily (very often 0) and the occurrence of snow fall on that date (regardless of whether it lay or melted or there was not enough to measure). They are both common meteorological statistics.
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by HansR »

freddie wrote: Sun 08 Dec 2024 3:52 pm
HansR wrote: Sun 08 Dec 2024 2:32 pm @Dador: if you can't measure it in the CMX context it is not of any use registering afaiac. Why is it important to register no snow? Why don't we do that all year round?
Some of us do. I register snow depth daily (very often 0) and the occurrence of snow fall on that date (regardless of whether it lay or melted or there was not enough to measure). They are both common meteorological statistics.
Ok. Apparently there is some experience concerning the snow missing here with me.
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by PaulMy »

Dador wrote
Yes, currently you can use the snowfall24h field for this. However, I believe that entering even 0.1 cm there to indicate a day with snowfall will result in incorrect interpretation of the measurements.

In my area, fine snowfall from stratus clouds often occurs in winter. They do not form any cover, nor are they measurable by a heated rain gauge. However, despite everything, I would classify such a day as a day with snowfall.
We can agree to disagree.
I identify a snow day when there is visible evidence of snow, like you do. I prefer to record it in a measurable amount rather than was it snowing; Yes or No.?

My snow recording has been guided by my participating in the CoCoRaHS program https://www.cocorahs.org/Content.aspx?page=aboutus

Code: Select all

24-Hour Precipitation Report Form	   
  Station Number :   CAN-ON-784
  Station Name :       Komoka 3.1 W
*
Denotes Required Field
12/8/2024


*Observation Date Date rain gauge was emptied and read.	For observations spanning more than 24 hours
Enter Multi-Day Accumulation
 
9:00

AM
*Observation Time Time rain gauge was emptied and read.
0.0
mm	*Gauge Catch: Rain and Melted Snow in millimeters to the nearest 0.1 mm that has fallen in the gauge during the past 24 hours, or T for trace, or NA for unknown. Precipitation (rain and the melted water content of snow) that fell in the rain gauge for the past 24-hours ending at your observation time.
Observation Notes: (This will be available to the public)Narrative description of significant weather during the past 24 hours.  See the Daily Comments Report for examples of notes from other observers.
 24-hr Snowfall
NA
cm	Snowfall: Accumulation of new snow in centimeters to the nearest 0.1 cm The maximum depth of new snow that fell in the past 24-hours on your snowboard, measured to the nearest 0.1 cm.
NA
mm	Snowfall SWE: Melted value from core to the nearest 0.1 mm The amount of water present in a core sample of the new snow on your snowboard taken with a rain gauge.
 Snowpack (Total Snow and Ice on Ground at Observation Time)
NA
cm	Snowpack Depth: Total snow and ice (new and old) in centimeters to the nearest 0.1 cm Total amount of snow and ice (new and old snow and ice combined) on the ground at observation time measured to the nearest 0.1 cm.
NA
mm	Snowpack SWE: Melted value from core to the nearest 0.1 mm The amount of water present in a core sample of the total depth of snow on the ground and includes both new snow that has fallen in the past 24 hours plus any old snow remaining on the ground.
Their guideline is that when rain or snow cannot be measured - i.e. less than 0.2 mm or 0.001 in. to us "Trace" and if a measurement is not available then use "NA". Since the CMX diary can only accept numeric entry so cannot use "Trace",


Since a "trace" cannot be entered in the diary I use 0.1 mm. Unlike rain, snow cannot be measured or visually observed to a 0.2 mm accuracy so I choose the next best thing.

Enjoy,
Paul
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by Dador »

I have been recording snow since I started using Cumulus, i.e. for over 10 years. Cumulus from Steve already offered the possibility of recording snowfall. I based my measurements on how my national meteorological service measures it. So, as freddie mentioned, every morning I completed the diary with the snow depth and whether I recorded snowfall that day, even visually, not measurably. The daily amount of snowfall has never interested me. For the rest, just look at the SYNOP messages from official weather stations, where the amount of snow cover is provided once a day, and the state of the atmosphere, i.e. the type of precipitation, is reported every hour. How much snow has fallen is secondary, because it melts in the rain gauge anyway and is included in the daily precipitation.

So, when it comes to snow statistics (snow itself, not snow as precipitation). What matters is how high the cover is, how long the cover stays on the surface and how many snowfall days there are per year.
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by HansR »

PaulMy wrote: Sun 08 Dec 2024 4:32 pm Since the CMX diary can only accept numeric entry so cannot use "Trace",

Since a "trace" cannot be entered in the diary I use 0.1 mm. Unlike rain, snow cannot be measured or visually observed to a 0.2 mm accuracy so I choose the next best thing.
I disagree here @Paul, the database can be used to different measurement rules: one can chose to fill in the snow24h or not. If you fill in then:
  1. If 0.2 cm or less it is trace snow and can be ignored, reporting should display 0
  2. A larger amount should be displayed and shown in chart
  3. If the user choses not to fill in the 24h value it remains null (DBnull) and nothing is shown, it gets dashes.
This way, the user determines what is in the db and what is shown in the report so the user rules all.
I think it is not really a technical issue (apart from the dashes in the report) but more something on how to use the database, how to report. Paul adheres to the Canadian system, Steinar to his Norwegian and Dador to his Polish. You do not need to agree, you just have to agree that you can use the system (CMX and/or CUtils) to your purpose. And I think you can (or will after the next release). So far no parameters on system to use will be necessary.

Am I mistaken?
Hans

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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by PaulMy »

Last post, I promise 🤞
Hans wrote:
Paul adheres to the Canadian system, Steinar to his Norwegian and Dador to his Polish. You do not need to agree, you just have to agree that you can use the system (CMX and/or CUtils) to your purpose.
Yes!

Just received this email from CoCoRaHS this morning, and no, I did not participate in this research.

Code: Select all

CoCoRaHS SWE Measurers - Snow Research Opportunity
Hello CoCoRaHS SWE measurers,

A little over one year ago, we reached out to ask for our most dedicated observers (those who continue through the wintertime to measure snow) to fill out a form to confirm their procedure for measuring the 24-Hour Snowfall Snow Water Equivalent (SWE) is being done correctly.

Thank you for confirming that you do your SWE measurement correctly!

As you know, Snowfall SWE is a distinctly separate measurement from your Gauge Catch.  It is obtained by collecting a core sample of the new snowfall from your snowboard and melting the contents (or weighing) to obtain the liquid value.  It is often times a different value from your Gauge Catch.

CoCoRaHS SWE data are primarily used by NOAA's National Gridded Snowfall Analysis.  According to their lead, Greg Fall, "It is routinely included in media reports, internal briefings, and NWS interactions with stakeholders."  Greg also said, "CoCoRaHS observers provided nearly 80% of the roughly 2.5 million observations used for daily snowfall analysis throughout the season. This is no mere plurality—CoCoRaHS observers are plainly essential to the consistency and accuracy of the snowfall information the NWS provides to the Nation."

Last year we invited you to a new study being conducted by a recent graduate of the University of Maryland working with partners at NOAA.  Several of you participated and the research resulted in a poster presentation and thesis paper.

The goal of the research is to see how the water content of freshly falling snow changes throughout the duration of a storm, and they would like to conduct more data this winter.  Please see below for details on participating again, or for the first time!

After signing up, they will contact you when they identify a storm of significance is approaching, and hopefully you'll be able to help.  Please see below for more details:
 
My name is Matthew Collins, and I am a recent graduate from the University of Maryland and together with my mentor Daniel Cobb at NOAA, this project is titled “Investigation of the Dynamic Nature of Snow-Liquid-Ratio (SLR) During the Course of a Winter Storm”.
 
Calculating and forecasting SLR is challenging.  SLR significantly impacts snowfall forecasts, and a poor SLR forecast can adversely affect realized snowfall totals.  Although model ensembles are used to calculate SLR, there is limited physical data and verification to show how SLR changes throughout the course of a winter storm. This project aims to provide insights into the dynamics of SLR during winter storms with hopes of improving snowfall forecasting.
 
As Nolan mentioned above, if you are willing to take three-hourly and occasionally hourly measurements during snow events throughout this winter, please read our instructions here where you can sign up to participate (or click on the photo below).  From there, we will only contact you in advance of coming storms where we hope you can be available to make measurements throughout the duration of the event.
 
Thank you for your consideration, and I hope to meet you via email if you choose to sign up.
Image of multiple snow layers from a single snow event
Help researchers study how the water content of freshly falling snow can change throughout the duration of a storm!  Click on the photo to sign up for this project.

Stay tuned for more newsletters throughout 2025, and thanks again for being some of our most faithful volunteers in the network!

Sincerely,
Nolan
Nolan Doesken
Founder, Community Collaborative Rain, Hail and Snow network (CoCoRaHS)
Colorado State University 
Copyright © 2024 CoCoRaHS, All rights reserved.
You are receiving this email because you subscribed to the CoCoRaHS newsletter.

Our mailing address is:
CoCoRaHS
1371 Campus Delivery
Ft. Collins, Colorado 80523
Enjoy,
Paul
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by HansR »

Thanks Paul.

Interesting, three and even one hourly measurements to get grip on the watercontent of snow.
I understand you did not participate in this research. A bit beyond amateur science :D

And why did we invent automatic measurements with which we occupy ourselves ;) :lol:
Hans

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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by sutne »

. . .The goal of the research is to see how the water content of freshly falling snow changes throughout the duration of a storm . . .
This is probably useful for meteo scientists, but way above my needs.

I will like to know the snow depth around my cabin, to know if I have to bring snow shoes or not when going up there.
And then most important, do I have to bring with me help to showel the snow from the roof? Snow depth above 120~150 cm.
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Re: Snowfall24-parameter, do we need it?

Post by PaulMy »

Last post, I promise 🤞
OK, I am breaking my promise :D
I really enjoy the changes (improvement) to diary and having the snow charts, thanks Mark and Hans, and others,

This season we had no snow in October and that is quite normal over the 14 years I've been observing and entering in Cumulus.
November had 2 days with new snowFall and snowDepth, which is way below the normal
December 13 days with new snowFall (total of 53.2 cm), and 24 days with snowDepth which is on the high side, and 133.2 EWSI index. (CU1 EWSI index shows 133 as it only accepts full cm entry)
January has all 3 days with new snowFall but only 3.6 cm total, and also 3 days with snowDepth, 4.3 EWSI.
https://www.komokaweather.com/weather/snowfall-log.pdf
https://www.komokaweather.com/cumulusmx ... c.htm#snow
https://www.komokaweather.com/cumulusmx ... iaryReport Remember to select year "2024"

CoCoRahs https://dex.cocorahs.org/stations/CAN-ON-784

Enjoy,
Paul
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C1 www.komokaweather.com/komokaweather-ca
MX https://komokaweather.com/cumulusmx/index.htm /index.html /index.php
MX https://komokaweather.com/cumulusmxwll/index.htm /index.html /index.php
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