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Geiger counter

Discussion of the Cumulusutils tool and website generator.

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Phil23
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Geiger counter

Post by Phil23 »

[Edit 14/3/22 HR:] This thread has been moved from the Stevenson Screen thread in General as it became a subject in itself.

I know this is a bit extreme, but @ $33, it would be fun to play with a module like this in an screen now more so than after an event we'd rather not have.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002590519046.html

Both Esp32 & Pi seems to have software solutions.
:Now: :Today/Yesterday:

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Re: Geiger counter

Post by HansR »

@Phill: Full disclosure: I just bought one a week ago (delivery between 4-14 may :( ) to add to the screen and possibly as extra sensor.

I will be looking at how it functions and If I can use it and get it some way or another as an extra sensor in CUtils. It will make value and charting of the geiger counter available. All uncertain as I really don't have a clue what I bought (how it tunctions, I know what a geiger counter is ;) )
Last edited by freddie on Mon 14 Mar 2022 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Incorrect title after topic split
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by Phil23 »

Ouch,
The thought about delivery time never entered my head.

On the thoughts of Extra Sensor's I've always chewed that over in my mind.
A few Universal Sensor inputs was one thought with a few of these points.

Definable for expected range including negative values.
Can be defined as "Moving Vs Scatter", IE Temp Vs Wind.
Can use a CSV file that exists in a defined path as it's data source, with either a single field or buy choosing on of multiple fields.

Would open things up to a variety of devices without the need for code in the Weather Software to read different devices.
Last edited by freddie on Mon 14 Mar 2022 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Incorrect title after topic split
:Now: :Today/Yesterday:

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Re: Geiger counter

Post by HansR »

Yes, the csv was the attraction. The rest i'll see.
Last edited by freddie on Mon 14 Mar 2022 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by Cortmalaw »

I was interested because a dump site near me has apparently been disturbing buried nuclear waste ...

BUT AliExpress will not let me order it to UK: This product can't be shipped to your address. Select another product or address.
Maybe due to Russian import ban or banking restrictions?
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by HansR »

Cortmalaw wrote: Sun 13 Mar 2022 10:15 pm
I was interested because a dump site near me has apparently been disturbing buried nuclear waste ...

BUT AliExpress will not let me order it to UK: This product can't be shipped to your address. Select another product or address.
Maybe due to Russian import ban or banking restrictions?
You might try amazon. I actually ordered on amazon.nl something different from what phill showed: https://www.amazon.nl/dp/B08P21LY69

If it can't deliver to GB either it must be some Brexit thing and you will have to try somethjng similar/other. Most are more expensive though. And beside that: I bought this one for € 27 and now it is raised to 32. Prices are changing fast! Happy days are over it seems :(
Last edited by freddie on Mon 14 Mar 2022 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by AndyKF650 »

These counters are available on Amazon UK
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by AllyCat »

Hi,
Cortmalaw wrote: Sun 13 Mar 2022 10:15 pm AliExpress will not let me order it to UK: This product can't be shipped to your address. Select another product or address.
HansR wrote: Sun 13 Mar 2022 10:30 am .. I just bought one a week ago (delivery between 4-14 may :(
Yes, I find AliExpress particularly frustrating; sometimes most of the items that they promote in their emails to me are not actually available in "my" country. And Amazon often appear to "hide" the location of their marketplace sellers. So personally, I usually start at ebay, who seem more "up front" about shipping times, taxes and locations. Of course "free shipping" is likely to be a warning sign for items that aren't "local". If you search for the part number of the tube shown in #1, there are multiple "hits", but nearly all are to the same seller in Ukraine, so I wouldn't hold my breath to receive one. :(

For purchases from China I now always look for "SpeedPAK" shipping which is usually an excellent service. Typically almost fully tracked, so you can amuse yourself following its route across China for a few days and then onto a plane. Sometimes the package will actually arrive before the first predicted date. :) There are also some Chinese sellers who claim their item is located in (say) the UK, but actually "Bulk Ship" packages from China, with a local distributor putting them into the local mail. Usually identifiable by a rather bland location (e.g. "London") and a predicted arrival time a few days later than you would normally expect (e.g. 1 - 2 weeks).

The item ordered by Hans appears to be available directly from UK stock (in Portsmouth) within 3 days, for a similar number of Pounds (i.e. ~+20%), but I'd be concerned by the power supply requirement of ~400 volts. If I were looking for a Radiation sensor, I'd be considering one like this mobile phone adapter although most seem to be from the same seller with a not great feedback rating. That it appears to be powered via the "Headset" socket is interesting; presumably it uses either the "bias" voltage normally output for the Electret microphone, or rectifies a "loud noise" output to the earphones? Its minimum response (0.1 uSv/hr) appears to be about the same as typical background radiation, with the "safe" yearly dose being about 10 - 20 times greater (20 milliSieverts/yr)?

Cheers, Alan.
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by Cortmalaw »

AndyKF650 wrote: Mon 14 Mar 2022 9:38 am These counters are available on Amazon UK
Thanks for the hint, but I'm not seeing it - only more versaitile, more expensive non-I2C boards and pre-built units.
Could you add a specific link?
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by AndyKF650 »

Hi there

The following link is the one I was looking at

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cigopx-Assembl ... C43&sr=8-5
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by HansR »

AllyCat wrote: Mon 14 Mar 2022 12:17 pm The item ordered by Hans appears to be available directly from UK stock (in Portsmouth) within 3 days, for a similar number of Pounds (i.e. ~+20%), but I'd be concerned by the power supply requirement of ~400 volts. If I were looking for a Radiation sensor, I'd be considering one like this mobile phone adapter although most seem to be from the same seller with a not great feedback rating.
I ordered it on the .nl site and it appears to come directly from China (by Chinapost, 8 weeks delivery time) definitely not from any stock close by. It could be that the UK has it really in stock what you say but, I would not really count on it until ordered. The device btw is sold by many companies apparently.

I would not worry too much about the high voltage for the tube. That is done by a step up module (this is a separate one) which I assume is present on the board, otherwise it can't function. Normal power supply is just by a battery and from what I see on the images - the battery pack - seems to be 4.5V so a USB power supply should do it.

But again, to be honest, I have no idea what I am going to get and if it really directly works when plugged in. I have no attached screen so I have to connect it to an RPi (or buy an ESP32 or alike) through the I2C interface normally used for the screen. At least that is how I understand this. I expect too much so there's no disappointment.

For background and a DIY geiger counter look here.
Something similar but less elaborated and less background look here.
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by AllyCat »

Hi,

HERE is the Ebay link that I found; it does appear to be a Chinese seller, who seems to have been selling around one each day for the past few weeks. He has a very good "feedback" rating, however I couldn't find any feedback (or reviews) for that particular item (but I must admit that often I don't give my ebay feedback promptly, if at all).

With a cursory glance at the PCB I couldn't see any transformer to step up the voltage ("LS1" is an audio sounder). However, a close examination reveals an inductor L3 and three blue "high voltage" (probably) capacitors (C6,C7 and C20) surrounding three diodes, which could implement a boost (overswing) circuit with peak-peak rectification (sometimes known as a voltage doubler). A step-up from 5v to 400v seems "ambitious" for such a configuration, but there is also L1 with a transistor and capacitors (but no obvious diode), which might create a two-stage boosting circuit? So yes, it does look as if it can be a self-contained circuit running from 4.5 - 5 volts. It's not clear why there are two dc input connectors, but perhaps just alternative options?

GeigerBoardr.jpg

My next "concern" would be the specification item: "The maximum count rate: 25 times / min". AFAIK, that's a typical "click" rate due to background radiation alone, so is that intended to indicate the expected background rate, or a "sampling" period over which a "radiation" count is made ?

Cheers, Alan.
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by HansR »

AllyCat wrote: Mon 14 Mar 2022 5:16 pm My next "concern" would be the specification item: "The maximum count rate: 25 times / min". AFAIK, that's a typical "click" rate due to background radiation alone, so is that intended to indicate the expected background rate, or a "sampling" period over which a "radiation" count is made ?
Hi Alan,

For me 25 times/minute does not mean it can only count 25 'ticks'/min , but I interpret it that it samples the 'click rate' 25 times per minute.
Not so subtle difference but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. We'll see.

Btw on Amazon.nl where I bought it (there are more sellers and builders than buyers it seems wow, must be an extremely popular device) there is no clicks specification but it is claimed it can detect

Code: Select all

20MR / h ~ 120mR / h
(Note the MR and mR, that may be a typo). That must be Rand (milli and/or Mega I assume). I can't bake cake from it.

If something is complex with Radiation it is the unit to use and its meaning so I am currently not yet in the mood for conversions but if you want: here is a table of units and here are cpm (counts per minute) to μSv/h conversions ;)

The Sievert is related to the type of tissue and it really pays to read the wiki, even taken into account that a wiki is error prone it gives a good start.

Somewhere it must go from counts to μSv/h, which is an SI unit.
Weigh factor for skin and brain (12 times lower than for bone) seems reasonable for me.

But it all starts by counting ticks.
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by Cortmalaw »

AllyCat wrote: Mon 14 Mar 2022 5:16 pm With a cursory glance at the PCB I couldn't see any transformer to step up the voltage ("LS1" is an audio sounder). However, a close examination reveals an inductor L3 and three blue "high voltage" (probably) capacitors (C6,C7 and C20) surrounding three diodes, which could implement a boost (overswing) circuit with peak-peak rectification (sometimes known as a voltage doubler). A step-up from 5v to 400v seems "ambitious" for such a configuration, but there is also L1 with a transistor and capacitors (but no obvious diode), which might create a two-stage boosting circuit? So yes, it does look as if it can be a self-contained circuit running from 4.5 - 5 volts.
Cheers, Alan.
Thanks for the description. On GitHub, impexeris has provided full circuit description and schematics. For the high voltage generator, it is: https://github.com/impexeris/DiY-Arduin ... erator.pdf
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Re: Geiger counter

Post by Cortmalaw »

Well, I bought this board and it arrived in 3 days as promised.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373937539723

Initial observations to keep others interested and off to a flying start:
  • there is no documentation
  • It works out of the box - plug in the separately packed (very fragile) GM tube and connect the barrel power connector to a USB 5v supply with the supplied wire (or 3xAA batteries with the supplied battery box)
  • When a count hits, there is a click from the loudspeaker and an LED flashes.
  • Power drawn at 5v is under the 10 mA lower limit of my USB powerometer. That's great, as it means I can power it off GPIO pins without needing a separate PSU
  • The digital output pin (confusingly labelled "VIN") apparently provides a nicely squared 700uS pulse. Most users seem to program to detect the falling edge.
  • Most people seem to connect it to an Arduino, but as we are all Pi people, below is an example I found. I would criticise that a 5v output from the detector board should not be directly connected to a GPIO 3.3v input pin; but most seem to get away with it. Suggest to add a 10k series resistor or a 3:5 potential divider.

Code: Select all

Raspberry Pi connection:
Maybe the code can be optimized but it works and that's good. 
    VIN = INT connected to pin#12 [I suggest via a 10k resistor or potential divider]
    5V to pin#2
    GND to pin#6

import time
from datetime import datetime
import RPi.GPIO as GPIO

GPIO.setmode(GPIO.BOARD) # use RaspPi board layout pin numbering
GPIO.setup(12, GPIO.IN, pull_up_down=GPIO.PUD_UP)

counter = 0

def tube_impulse_callback(channel): # threaded callback -- falling edge detected
    global counter # make counter global to be able to increment it
    counter+=1

# when a falling edge is detected on port 12, regardless of whatever 
# else is happening in the program, the tube_impulse_callback will be run
GPIO.add_event_detect(12, GPIO.FALLING, callback=tube_impulse_callback)

try:
    while True:
        currentMinute = datetime.now().minute
        while datetime.now().minute == currentMinute: # this minute..
            time.sleep(1) # .. wait while add_event_detect detects pulses
        print counter
        counter=0 # reset counter
except KeyboardInterrupt:
    GPIO.cleanup() # clean up GPIO on CTRL+C exit
except:
    GPIO.cleanup() # clean up GPIO on normal exit
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