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sfws
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Forum organisation

Post by sfws »

In a recent posting you may have seen, I suggested that it was time to restructure the division of the whole Cumulus support forum into sub-forums now that Cumulus MX is out of beta, as the structure was derived for Cumulus 1 and yet MX will dominate in future.
As I said in that topic, I'm not the right person to suggest what should be the structure, but l can make a few suggestions, shoot them down if you hate them, refine them if you find them helpful.
  • Some points (like the one I am making now) may span both Cumulus 1 and Cumulus MX so there should be a sub-forum that spans both, so people don't have to pick MX or 1 for general points, and maybe the station make specific queries sub-fora e.g. Davis in viewforum.php?f=6 should move into that
  • People sometimes suggest one or more posts should be moved (see this that was actioned viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17847&p=138200&hilit=wiki#p138201, it could be easier for administrators if perhaps there was a request to administrators/coders type sub-forum? It could also include a place to suggest changes to (or potential problems with) MX to keep those separate from postings that just want help with using it? It could also be useful to separate out the posts that to some extent are documentary, like the start/stop routine?
  • In the previous posting I suggested that the MX announcements made by Steve and those made since Mark started enhancing MX were in separate topics. So much has changed in MX that many of Steve's remarks no longer have any relevance. Also Steve had an approach of listing issues and marking them with line through once they were addressed, viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12943 that is partly still accurate and partly confusing, but a replacement pending issues/additions marking of progress might be useful - I know Mark says he does not have time for documentation and asked for volunteers, but I guess he does have a list in his head or somewhere of what he still wants to add to MX? (e.g. some features in Cumulus 1 not yet added?)
  • There has in past been confusion between what counts as third party tools viewforum.php?f=18 and what is put in say Web Site - general viewforum.php?f=14 and maybe now Mark has a new list in Wiki about user contributions https://cumuluswiki.org/a/User_Contributions, that terminology should be adopted, so for example we separate postings about beteljuice's contributions that do not have their own sub-forum in the same way as Ken True has a sub-forum? All those sub-fora are then grouped under user contributions. I say this because "website development" might not be best title when some people make suggestions about exporting, about using spreadsheets, and other issues that relate to use of information on web sites rather than their development. Also being perdantic I would say development refers to when you do that work yourself, rather than "borrow" or make use of somebody else's work!
Right I have fired the starting gun, over to others to say what structure would make life easier for them.

Do you just just press the button "Active" (or use an equivalent bookmark) or do you choose which sub forum to look in. How often do you look at this support forum, is it only when you need to find something out, or is it because you are interested in learning from others? Do you get annoyed about some topic titles and wish there was some better grouping that would let you look at what interests you?
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by HansR »

OK, good for a start, thanks.

Since I returned to Cumulus about a year ago I think the forum can do better. I have some points:
  1. Archive ALL old posts, get them out of the way. Cumulus made a new start and old postings can be very confusing for everybody. The easy way would be to simply start a new forum and have the old one 'search only' attached.
  2. Set up a new structure, similar as the old one of course, but blank. I'll use the following types:
    • Forums - the top level items
    • Boards - Within the forums there are boards
    • Threads - within the boards there are threads
    All Forums have a moderator (of course somewhat knowledgable) and manage all boards/threads in that forum. Submoderators for Boards can be assigned (especially for specialist topics)
    • The moderator can and must replace misplaced threads, regulate, remove irrelevant answers etc...
    • The strict moderation is typical of Boards on software releases (similar to the current MX Board which is locked. But also tools in use must have their own release boards.
    • As tools are often made by third persons, those tool-builders/owners must be active on the forum. If they are not active on the forum their tool Board disappears, unless the code is in public github and a supporter to manage the tol support release and support boards (so yes, a tools has a specific - locked - release board and a specific support board.
  3. Many subjects have a volatile exchange between functional and coding issues in a thread. I would suggest to do functional discussion in the support threads (I could imagine the Cumulus forum to have more than one functional board) and up to the moderator to create a specific Board if necessary or to stick to the threads within the existing board.
  4. I suggest a forum dedicated to coding for specific tools (like javascript, PHP etc...) as there is many knowledge around but dispersed everywhere and impossible to find.
  5. As strict moderation inhibits discussion, there must be a forum where free exchange of ideas on specific subjects is the prime goal. Boards and threads only need to be managed on 'findability'. So naming is important.
You can come up with anything about the forum, but as far as I look at it, I would say that a restart would be beneficial and I would suggest the following forums/boards (legacy software can be taken from the downloads section, no support for Cumulus 1):
  1. Cumulus
    • Announcement and News
    • MX releases
    • MX Support
    • MX free discussion
  2. Tools
    • List of any operational tool with creator still present goes here. The creator applies for his/hers own board
    • ...
    • Non supported tools
  3. Open Discussion
    • Weather
    • Fire Weather
    • Non supported weather stations
    • Self build hardware
    • etc....
  4. ....
Oh, and it may sound as if a huge number of people would be involved but I don't think that is required. The most important would be a Master Moderator and a replacement. From there on, everybody can get a specific role and access if required. If somebody drops out, the board is archived and closed. For a tool, a supporter is sought if code is open, if not found => archived.

Anyway, this is my shot for the bow.
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by jimi »

My tuppence worth, all that's needed is a bit of housekeeping with some redundant posts, stickies and forums, other than that, leave the structure the way it is.
Don't overcomplicate with too many forums and sub forums, don't remove Cumulus 1 many many people are still happily using it.
At the end of the day this is primarily the Cumulus forum and should stay that way.
My landing page here is always "new posts" search.php?search_id=newposts
Having had over 15 years experience as admin/mod on a busy car forum, don't underestimate the amount of time and effort required to totally reorganise an existing forum.
Getting people willing to put in the time and effort required on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis isn't as easy as it might seem. 8-)
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by sfws »

Thank you for those replies. I am a little surprised that neither Freddie nor Water01 have shot me down.
jimi wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 2:08 am don't remove Cumulus 1 many many people are still happily using it.
I certainly had no intention of doing that. My thought was that the Davis and Fine Offset etc sub-forums no longer should be under Cumulus 1.
I suggested it might make sense to have a new sub-forum so they did not have to be under MX either.
HansR wrote: Mon 16 Mar 2020 11:18 am The easy way would be to simply start a new forum and have the old one 'search only' attached.
I did not mean that either.
jimi wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 2:08 am My landing page here is always "new posts"
For my tuppence worth, I do focus on new posts first, but I also do a lot of scanning through old posts either to see if there is a solution to a question posed in one of the new posts, or to seek inspiration for my Wiki edits.
jimi wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 2:08 am don't underestimate the amount of time and effort required to totally reorganise an existing forum.
I have no experience to base suggestions on, but I don't think this describes what I meant to imply was needed. I am certainly grateful to water01 and Freddie for all that they do do, and don't intend to burden them too much.

I was thinking more along the lines of in just a few cases splitting an existing thread. One suggestion I had made was splitting the Steve and Mark release announcements, in just the same way that the Steve and Mark downloads have been kept separate on the software download page.

But I was also suggesting starting a few new subsections to take some new posts and to (for the future) separate out the posts that were asking for help, the posts that were related to reviews/comments about releases and some of the third-party software. Within Cumulus 1 we had a sub forum for beta releases that kept the comments about what Steve was adding separate from the begging for help. I was just thinking this single MX forum was too much off a catch all.
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by HansR »

sfws wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 8:18 am
HansR wrote: Mon 16 Mar 2020 11:18 am The easy way would be to simply start a new forum and have the old one 'search only' attached.
I did not mean that either.
May be not what you meant, but it is what I mean ;)

I don't suggest to throw away, I suggest to put aside the old stuff and restart the necessary and interesting threads. Relevant info should be in the wiki with more pointing to the info like you did recently. The forum is nice to search, if you have the time and the interest, but should not be used as an encyclopedia but as an online help, discussion, idea generator/supporter.

Currently Wiki, download and FAQ are already accessible through the upper right hand corner. Why would you need all those old threads? If they are interesting after all these years, compile info to the wiki. 8-)

But we agree on one thing I guess: reorganising existing forum threads: that take a huge amount of time. Don't do it :!: , just archive or compile to Wiki. And for the rest, start over and archive if older than a year and has not been accessed. I guess of those many messages in the forum only few are read high frequency, a little more low frequency ( > once per year) and the rest is simply forgotten because it is outdated, links don't work or people have just left (I did send a mail to Daj, he never replied, the message is still in the outbox so he never read it). What do we want?

And yes, maybe it is not what you mean, but it is just my idea. I have no access to forum management, so I am not dangerous :D
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by water01 »

sfws wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 8:18 am I am a little surprised that neither Freddie nor Water01 have shot me down.
No intention to do so as some of the ideas are valid. I run 3 different phpBB forums and they all have to evolve, but one of the things you NEVER do is start anew as that removes from public sight the combined knowledge of the board and the search facility which is why I had a go at improving Search. It is surprising the number of times you remember in an old post what you did or what someone else did to overcome a problem, and with the best will in the world if you start a new board people gradually lose sight of the old one.

I am talking to Freddie and as I have time and the experience of phpBB and its little traits a little re-organisation may take place to reflect the current status of the Cumulus family of software etc.
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by sfws »

HansR wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 8:36 am May be not what you meant, but it is what I mean
Yes, it was that I was shooting down.
HansR wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 8:36 am Why would you need all those old threads?
I have already said why, and won't repeat. I will add that as YOU do look at the forum a LOT you must have noticed that a good percentage of topics have cross references to old topics.
water01 wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 9:28 am a little re-organisation may take place to reflect the current status of the Cumulus family of software etc.
Thank you, I am convinced everyone will benefit, whether they just view new posts, or they use the forum to try to answer their problems before they post a cry for help.
water01 wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 9:28 am as I have time
That is what is now being said a lot by people interviewed on the news. I hope all forum readers whose ability to have normal lives has been restricted by recent events will keep fit and happy, even if facing social isolation.
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by HansR »

I'am OK with any improvement.
sfws wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 10:51 am
HansR wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 8:36 am Why would you need all those old threads?
I have already said why, and won't repeat. I will add that as YOU do look at the forum a LOT you must have noticed that a good percentage of topics have cross references to old topics.
I assume you are aware there are 132743 posts, I would be surprised if 1% (so, roughly 1400 posts) of those are actually being used. No doubt you can get some figures on the forum and its use - analysis? And on top of that an enormous amount of links in those posts simply don't work any more.

But for the rest, my opening sentence of this post is valid.
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by sfws »

HansR wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 11:37 am here are 132743 posts
Agreed. I have I hope read all of them in the decade or more I have been a forum user. What proportion I actually remember is different.
HansR wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 11:37 am an enormous amount of links in those posts simply don't work any more.
Agreed, and in fact a lot of links from Wiki I found as I edited it were dead too. I do not find that surprising, it is true of a large proportion of web sites I access in my life, very few web administrators seem to track their broken links. One could blame the web as a whole for its constant changing attitude, but refreshing is what people want, yet few have time or indeed skills to keep their sites updated.

Many contributors to the forum in the past may have passed on, and many others have given up paying to maintain web sites or totally restructured their web sites. That is what happens. I still use some routines that Mark has archived off his web site and I am glad I downloaded some items from others that are no longer available. They have helped me.

When Steve Loft ended his association with Cumulus, there was a real expectation (before Freddie came to rescue) that everything on the forum would be lost. That I believe shows that even if only a few percent of the forum is actively used indicates we should not rush into any guessing of which bits remain useful.

There are 2 key point:
1 - is that I do not want waters01 or anyone else to have to work through existing content deciding what might or might not be wanted in future, but I do believe people should be able to go back to old posts (whether mine or anyone else) and update them or ask related questions.
2 - is that I think some small changes to forum structure will help for future.
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by water01 »

HansR wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 11:37 am
I assume you are aware there are 132743 posts, I would be surprised if 1% (so, roughly 1400 posts) of those are actually being used. No doubt you can get some figures on the forum and its use - analysis? And on top of that an enormous amount of links in those posts simply don't work any more.

But for the rest, my opening sentence of this post is valid.
It is not the quantity of the posts or the activity of them, it is the accumulated knowledge that those posts bring to the forum. One of my other Forums has over 1m posts quite a few in an area called How To (it is a car forum and people contribute articles when they have done some particular type of maintenance on their car) and that resource is used by hundreds of Users per day even though they may not post in the forum. It is therefore the use to forum and its users that a post should be judged.

So what a Forum is, like a Wiki, is a searchable knowledge base, it is not something that can be measured in used posts or total number of posts, and that I hope with some small reorganisation is how it will continue.

As to your point about missing links, sites like photobucket with the change from free to chargeable caused quite a lot of this mayhem, but there is the inevitable churn of users who post things with links to photos, articles etc. and then either leave or forget they posted that link so a proportion die. If we as admins had to check all the posts to make sure the links posted by others work it would be almost impossible to do!!
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by jimi »

^^^^^^ @ water01. Spot on, my own experience backs up yours, the forum I help with has posts and articles going back to 2003 when it started, at the moment it has:
Total posts 264399 • Total topics 18093 • Total members 35563
To my mind history/information is one of the beauties of forums and should be maintained.
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Re: Forum organisation

Post by jimi »

water01 wrote: Thu 19 Mar 2020 12:25 pm If we as admins had to check all the posts to make sure the links posted by others work it would be almost impossible to do!!
Indeed, you would have to be constantly reading/re-reading posts and following links, even then I doubt it's possible on a reasonably sized forum. As you pointed out there's many circumstances where it's external and totally outwith your control.
Most admins (myself included) will correct (if possible) broken links when they come across them or if they are pointed out, if and when they have time. But to actively seek them out, no not enough time in the day.
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