[IMPLEMENTED] Simpler CMX use on Raspberry Pi

[prodata]

Hope no-one minds if I pull this out into a new thread for posterity from the server-side graphics one because I do think this is an important topic. IMO the learning curve for using CMX on the Pi is significant for anyone not very familiar with Raspberry Pi or Linux in general and is definitely discouraging users from migrating to CMX. Anything that could be done to simplify or ease the process would be welcome (which is as much about things like video tutorials as any changes to CMX itself). The train of thought is:

1. In most applications, CMX really benefits from using a dedicated computer.
2. But Windows PCs are typically large, expensive, use significant power eg when running 24/7 and are prone to problems with automatic Windows updates.
3. Raspberry Pi devices are small, cheap, readily available, low power consumption and tend to run robustly for extended periods, so ought to be ideal as a dedicated CMX box.
4. The problem is that most users aren't familiar with Linux and while there are good instructions for setting up CMX on a Pi, the length and detail of these can be pretty daunting to a newcomer.

I won't repeat all the details from the old thread, but anything that could be done to simplify the jump to a Pi would be welcome, eg video, a downloadable image, any simplification to the mono install etc.

FAOD this is absolutely not a criticism of CMX. Nor do I disagree in the slightest that the installation of CMX on eg a Windows PC could scarcely be easier. It's the transition (for probably the substantial majority of users) from the familiarity of Windows to the alien landscape of Linux that it would be good to see eased in any way possible.

[mcrossley]

It's a good idea John, but it needs someone/people to put their hand(s) up and volunteer to create and then maintain something like an OS image with MX pre-installed.
I'm spending too much time just on Cumulus itself, I do not want to take on anything in addition to that.

Of course then the hand holding changes from copying MX to rPi to how to install images!

[HansR]

As I expressed before, I favour a more user focussed approach in the sense that the user has more an idea of being busy with meteorology than with IT.

However I don't see creating an image as a solution because after the image the user still has to do quite a lot before he/she sees something of what would be CMX. We may think it is easy, apparently a lot of people think otherwise.

So I would suggest the following:

1. A user must prepare a bare RPi. This mean the OS is installed, we propose to do that according to the raspberry.org procedure, maybe with some additional adivise about SSH and Wifi for a headless install. The user must be willing and able to do this. See it as a kind of precondition to handle the RPi and learn some of the basics of Linux/RPi. If the user does not want to or is not able to then simply forget the RPi. I think that would then be a wise decision by the user. Even doing an install with an image would not help if you can't master the basics. It would lead to irritation and the inverse of what we would want to achieve.
2. With a bare RPi, installed for a commandline handling and SSH access (one could later consider terminal access with windows access but let's start with the widely used and oversee-able commandline) we could deliver an installation procedure which would ask elementary things on the commandline (station name, location, lat, lon etc....) and install CMX.
3. After installation you could ask if they want a website and ask the data for using the website. Put all lines in the inifile at the right spot and the thing is ready. Start CMX and tell the user how to start the interface. Childs play!
4. It would be quite easy to make a modification section for the inifile and with the systemd start/stop life has become pretty easy to automate things.

In other words, it is not too difficult to make an installer/modifier/start/stopper as a kind of CMX management utility from the commandline. One could also make room for add ons (other website installs or whatever has been made in the past). The requirements for those addons would have to be discussed. See it as a analogon to Raspi-config. In the end the user may still be using it for tasks which are made easier but finally users will get acquainted with Linux and go deeper and deeper into the system.

I really believe this would make life easier for starters.

But there is a drawback. What I have read here is, that there is some resistance against such an approach.
I think that has to change before I would commit to such task. Nevertheless, if there is enough support then I am willing to try and make something like an installation procedure and make it part of what is CMX. To start with the RPi because that is where it is most necessary.

[sfws]

Use of MX on a Raspberry Pi is much simpler than use of MX in a Microsoft Windows environment:
- Look at the number of users whose profile indicates they use a UNIX derived operating system against number of users mentioning Windows
- Look at number of posts requesting help with MX on Windows, versus posts requesting help with Linux systems

I accept that if someone has got used to "\" as file path separators, to case not mattering in file names, and to other Microsoft oddities introduced to force anyone who uses a PC to stick to using Microsoft computers then it might be harder to swap to the outside Microsoft of case sensitive, "/" for path separators, etc.
But there is at least one age group who first met computers before Microsoft butted in, who found coping with everything being non-standard on PCs made them the harder machine to understand, plus much of the world prefers open source products and for cost reasons avoids Microsoft licensing costs.

Mark's reply to the original post does touch on the only area where there could be a difficulty: The biggest problem with MX is actually that it is still under development, it keeps being updated, and any instructions, video, or prepared installation image, need to continually be kept updated by someone devoting at least as much time as Mark does.

discouraging users from migrating to CMX

The migration from Cumulus 1 is covered at https://cumuluswiki.org/a/Migrating_fro ... us_1_to_MX EDIT: Link updated

For those using a rival weather software product, the advantages of Cumulus are covered at https://cumuluswiki.org/a/About_Cumulus

Of course much of the Wiki is out of date, and incomplete, but it needs many contributors because no single person uses all functionality in MX, and it takes a lot of work to understand any aspect of MX enough to document it accurately, apart from skills in writing documentation so it is usable for both novices and those needing technical details. Finally, at the moment, more people use Cumulus 1 than MX, so it is hard to convert a Wiki designed around the legacy software to become one designed around the newer software, but still capable of being used by those sticking with the old Cumulus.

[HansR]

@sfws: I don't see how this extraordinary amount of text attributes to the solution or a conclusion.

So Hans, a kind offer, and I can see how it fits in with your other project, I am not sure it is the magic solution, but the current settings could be improved (and it does seem strange having to have MX running before you can make the most basic and essential selections that Mx needs to process readings from your weather station)

I don't see it as fitting in with any other project, I did not propose magic and your remarks about the settings are irrelevant and solvable.
At most it fits in with my ideas about approach of users and purpose.

You really should reconsider what you want to achieve, this text does not lead to anything.
If you want to make a point it can and should be shortened.

[AndyKF650]

In reply to previous comments I would like to add my experience of CMX. My start point was from being a user of a Oregon weather station using Meteohub software on a RPi to enable low cost 24/7 processing of the weather data through to Wunderground. After a couple of years running the Oregon station I upgraded to a Davis VP2 weather station but still running Meteohub. However, Meteohub is now at its end of life and not being developed so I researched for a replacement system. I considered WeeWX , Davis Weatherlink and CMX but found CMX more in tune with my low cost ethic. Weatherlink seemed an expensive upgrade without much user adaptability. After further research I found the Meteo-pi connector for the VP2 to a RPi which seemed a good solution.

Setting up a RPi is a good introduction into basic Linux computing and can be achieved quickly using the online resources from Raspberry Pi, I used the version without recommended software. Installing Mono was initially a trial but going to the Mono website provided sufficient information to complete the task. The CMX software from the wiki was easily accessed and loaded onto the RPi and for a first run a new blank Cumulus.ini file needed to be created. The support documentation indicated the next step was to start CMX and open the administration interface on a pc or laptop this caused a slight issue since a couple of RPi files needed to be adapted to allow the meteo-pi to connect with the RPi.

Once the CMX settings were completed I shut down CMX, the RPi and the VP2 and rebooted the system and all worked fine. The connection with Wunderground worked as expected and if there is a need to work on the local system on reboot any historical data is automatically pushed on.

Since my initial start at the end of August 2020 I have upgraded the version of Mono, done a couple of updates to CMX and added a stop/start program and all is running smoothly recording data from the VP2 and automatically sending it onto Wunderground. The charts and information on CMX are different from my old Meteohub setup and much better for it.

For me the good thing is that once the hardware is purchased and installed the software is freely available and can be reinstalled at any time, the only penalty of reinstallation is the time taken. I understand that the initial setup can be thought a bit of a long task compared to a basic plug and play system (Weatherlink) but you do get the satisfaction of completing a low impact Linux weather project and being able to customise, at your own risk, the CMX interface.

Basically I am very pleased with the package and the implied background support from the user forum. Keep up the good work.

[HansR]

@AndyKF650:
Well, that is a big applause for the guys who do the support here (I am not one of them though sometimes I reply).

But your response, given the discussion, makes me wonder: do you think some kind of installation procedure (i.e. the physical installation of CMX and the standard website as I look at it) which would guide the user through the process (and could redo that for updates and reinstallations) would be beneficial, a useful addon, a must have or even a requirement for the future of CMX on the RPi?

(And btw: a link to your website e.g. in the signature, if any, is usually highly appreciated here and sometimes required in case of support)

[AndyKF650]

@HansR
Noted your comments and agree big applause to the CMX support and development team.

Regarding a simple solution for CMX installation and web site creation I am not sure. Some like me will enjoy the challenge of researching the literature to find the answers to problems that crop up, others will just breeze through and need little help. The problem with a one style fits all for users who are unused to setting up RPi OS and simple Linux coding or just do not want the bother of doing is that the administrators then have a real task to provide detailed support to those people who just want a plug and play option.

So in answer to your question maybe the CMX wiki can be streamlined and updated to cover the basics (but surely that is already there). Maybe a list of resources would help but only as a nice to have.

Finally as yet I do not have a web site or really any need for one as my page on Wunderground gives sufficient public web space at the moment.

[radilly]

This discussion is interesting. I actually stumbled onto it while I was looking for more information about the -service flag encoded in CumulusMX/MXutils/linux/cumulusmx.service. I've not been able to find much on it so far. Why? Because I just "updated" from a much older version of MX and had written my own systemctl service and was comparing the 2 service files. I am running on an RPi 3 with the "Lite" version of Raspberry Pi OS, so I'm comfortable with the CLI.

As background, I did something very dumb a couple of weeks ago. I was in the CumulusMX directory, cd'ed into a directory I needed to clean up, and ran rm -r *. I mistyped the target for the cd and ended up wiping out CMX ... and a lot of data I hadn't backed up. I got distracted, and a little lazy in an unfortunate combination.

Now that CMX runs with a current mono, I found installation to be much easier. The requirement of some older versions of CMX for a less-than-current version of mono gave me trouble when I trialed making an update.

I've tried to make fairly careful notes in prepping the PI and installing CMX - though I've not yet put it under systemctl. I also have a watchdog I had been developing I will eventually tweak and install.

Its been a few years, but during my career for a time I was the packaging guy for some IBM AIX sortware. One technique we used was a combination of simple prompt-response install helper scripts, and a pre-requisite checker. I think some simple scripts might be of value and I wouldn't think a lot of maintenance would be required unless the file structure or prerequisite changed significantly. My scripting .... even for myself ... typically incorporates a fair amount of commentary with many references to web sites with supporting information. I also typically code for readability over efficiency. (As I get older I'm increasingly appreciative of that habitual sytle.)

So I may be roughing out some scripting for myself to set up a Pi with some basic configuration that has become common across my Pis. Very little of this is CMX-specific. I've wanted to have some helpers for setting up RPis. I'm running a mix of Pi 3s and Zeros. What I'm thinking about would most likely work on any Pi hardware and OS.

I keep pretty busy, but I'd be willing to help / share if others would be interested.

Bob

[dazza1223]

Is there any other way to upgrade the Lite version to desktop version?

[mcrossley]

A quick google throws up lots of how-to's

[dazza1223]

Yh I googled quite a lot and it doesn't seem to work properly it just gets bricked so I'm going to the expert who can do it with work with Linux