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Temperature data spikes revisited

Discussion specific to Fine Offset and similar rebadged weather stations
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Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

werribee_au wrote:Gina, have you tried a small electrolytic capacitor across the battery?
No, not yet. I think that's a good idea :) I'm hoping to do a bit on it today.

I wondered if it was due to lower temperatures recently but apparently not as this plot shows (last 60 hours)...
60hrs-Temperature.png
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Gina

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Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

Just brought the tx unit indoors and checked the battery voltage (in situ) - 3.45v. So the voltage is fine but I haven't checked the resistance. I've put it back outdoors in the Stevenson Screen but without the cables connected for the moment. An hour or two should tell if disconnecting the cables stops the spikes. In the meantime I can find a capacitor to stick across the battery.
Gina

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Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

At about 15:30 BST today I brought the tx unit indoors again and fitted a 220uF miniature electrolytic capacitor across the battery terminals. Took unit back outdoors and plugged the cables back in. So we now have wind and rain sensors connected as before but with the battery capacitor.
Gina

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Charlie
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Charlie »

I've been wrestling with wierdness on the temperature plots as well.

A few weeks ago, we had a storm go through with a lot of wind - basically went from nothing to 50 km/H winds, then back to nothing in the space of about an hour. I noticed the noise on the temperature plot aligned almost perfectly - no wind, no noise.

For the last couple days it's been quite windy and my temperature curve has been a mess. This morning, I put a small capacitor (o.1 uF) across the wind speed sensor only (center 2 pins on the cable) about 6 inches before the transmitter unit. My graph change was pretty dramatic.
Image1.jpg
Clearly this area is the right one for poking at, althought I likely don't have the best value yet. Perhaps a cap on each leg to ground might be a better configuration too, but this is a good start. YMMV.
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Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

That's very interesting :) I'll have to try that. So far with the capacitor across the batteries there have been no spikes (yet) early hours yet though - some spikes were three and a half hours apart.
24hrs-Temperature-only.png
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DrMD
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by DrMD »

If I had any errors that where as bad as yours I would try testing the Tx myself.
Could it be the coil on the the reed relay, EMF feed back, relay bounce.
The reed relays feed back through resistors of different values, high and low.
You provided this info. Are the errors when the wind is in a certain direction.
Hard to tell I know as it spins crazily most of the time if there is any wind to talk about.
Wonder if a transient(diodes) protector would help.
Just throwing some thoughts out there.
Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

Good points :) However, it's looking good after putting a 220uF capacitor across the battery terminals.
24hrs-Temperature-only 2.png
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Gina

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Charlie
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Charlie »

DrMD wrote:If I had any errors that where as bad as yours I would try testing the Tx myself.
Could it be the coil on the the reed relay, EMF feed back, relay bounce.
The reed relays feed back through resistors of different values, high and low.
You provided this info. Are the errors when the wind is in a certain direction.
Hard to tell I know as it spins crazily most of the time if there is any wind to talk about.
Wonder if a transient(diodes) protector would help.
Just throwing some thoughts out there.
Perhaps you should go back and have another look at those posts. The wind sensors design does not have any reed relays at all. It does use reed switches that are closed by a magnet passing by, but there are no coils.
Based on my issue, the source of the noise is the speed sensor which uses a single reed switch and no resistors at all; not the direction sensor. And I guess to make it 3 for 3, the transmitter unit counts pulses, so eliminating them will make the sensor stop functioning. The trick is to get rid of the noise without getting rid of the signal.

Gina, is your theory that the batteries are developing higher internal resistance over time, and can't meet the current demand during these pulses? It's a neat idea - a bit counter-intuitive since the addition of cable length should actually slow down rise times and current demand. Perhaps they are driving those switches with some sort of constant power source. It does explain why things get worse as the batteries age, and for me the effect gets worse as the temperature goes down (I'm still using alkalines). The lithiums you are using should have a much lower resistance, although they also have an integrated PTC which might cause troubles...
You might also want to drop a small ceramic (0.1 uF or something) across the electrolytic since they often have high ESR and ESL, or switch to a different technology the next time you are somewhere you can pick something up.
Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

So far so good with just the electrolytic C across the batteries - no spikes yet.

You're right about not reed relays but switches - I missed that point. Yes, agreed it's probably the anemometer cable that's picking up the noise. A diode to the +ve battery terminal to stop spikes going much about the +ve supply might help and/or another to the -ve to stop negative spikes. Another thought I had was to connect the anemometer cable to a relay or monostable eg. a 555 timer chip to clean up the "signal".

Yes, I was thinking of batteries developing a higher internal resistance as they discharge.
Gina

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Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

44 hours + since adding the battery capacitor... Temperature only plot - degrees C for the last 44 hours.
44hrs-Temperature.png
I think there may be some noise on the data - seems to me that the temperature varies a bit too quickly, though I suppose the amount of breeze through the Stevenson Screen could cause a variation. 5 minute sample rate.
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werribee_au
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by werribee_au »

Here's the variation I get Gina (Yesterdays outdoor temp), with the transmitter in a Stevenson Screen.

And yes that temp drop did happen, it got cool really quick.
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Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

Thanks Gerard :) That looks a lot smoother than mine.
Gina

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Gina
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by Gina »

This is interesting/perplexing. Here are two temperature plots originating from the same transmitter and outdoor sensors but different consoles and computers. The sampling time of the consoles will differ as they weren't started up at exactly the same time. The computers download data from the consoles and upload it at 00,10,20,30, etc. mins past the hour and the other at 02,12,22 etc.
24hrs-Temperature-only-a.png
24hrs-Temperature-only-b.png
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jim-easterbrook
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by jim-easterbrook »

The sensors transmit data every 48 seconds, the consoles log it every 5 minutes. One of your consoles logged the spike, the other didn't. I'm sure both consoles received the spike.
Jim
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mcrossley
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Re: Temperature data spikes revisited

Post by mcrossley »

It's not just the large spike, there are some smaller ones in there too - say at 3am.

Here are the graphs overlaid - not very clear, but it does show some differences I think.
The sensors transmit data every 48 seconds, the consoles log it every 5 minutes. One of your consoles logged the spike, the other didn't. I'm sure both consoles received the spike.
Yes, as Cumulus (are you using Cumulus for this Gina?) only logs the last reading prior to the log interval, I guess you will have to synchronise the loggers to be sure.
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