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Maplin station range issue

Discussion specific to Fine Offset and similar rebadged weather stations
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Irish Steve
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu 09 Dec 2010 4:01 pm
Weather Station: WH1081
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Maplin station range issue

Post by Irish Steve »

Hi Folks,

Put a "standard" Maplin station up for a friend earlier in the week, it's on a pole attached to a chimney that's 2.5 floors up from where the base station is supposed to be going, and that's the problem, if the base station is on the window cill on the ground floor, it's not seeing the remote station signal. I've had several of these at other locations, and seen better range than this, so I'm slightly confused. At the moment, it's running on a couple of Duracell Batteries, and I've no reason to doubt them, though I didn't fit them. If the base station is taken outdoors, even slightly further away from the sender, it's getting the signal, but that's not a lot of help in terms of reliability

It's a pig to get to to change the batteries, ladder to the gutter, a roof ladder to get to the ridge to then go to the other side and down a couple of metres to the chimney, then lower the pole in the bracket, so I'm not wanting to go up there unless I have to.

I'm hoping to get a small solar charger to work with it, (found one that charges 2 AA cells on E-Bay, so that should be ideal), which will at least avoid having to go up on the roof to change the batteries, and yes, I'm well aware of the problems of spiders in the rain gauge etc. but I'd like to try and find a way to validate/improve the signal strength before I go climbing again. There's not a lot of other potential for signals that might be blocking the transmitter, it's rural, the next nearest house is over 100 Mtrs away, and apart from WiFi networking, and a 2.4 Ghz radio broadband about 20 mtrs away, I'm not aware of any other RF sources that might be causing grief.

If the worst comes to the worst, I guess we'll end up putting the receiver station closer to the unit in the roof, and find a way to send the USB signal over the network to another computer, but that's not the simplest of solutions.

I was wondering if anyone has done any work on using something like a Raspberry Pi or a small Arduino with appropriate shields as a USB to Network sender, so that a low power small device could be used to send the information to another computer on the network, but I suspect that's a project for another day

So, I guess the first Question is can a weak battery cause low signal output, without the base unit reporting it as low battery? It's been a while since I ran one of these on batteries on it's own, my one at home had a mains powered backup system to keep the batteries charged, so I never had issues with low signal strength.

Are Duracell batteries acceptable, or should I be using something different to get the maximum possible signal for as long as possible?

Thanks

Steve
Irish Steve

Shore, if twas easy, we'd all be doin it
water01
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by water01 »

Lithium Batteries are supposed to be the best. Get mine from Maplins http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-lithiu ... pack-n28gg

Presumably there is a loft floor and a ground floor ceiling and some brickwork between the sender and the console all of which will affect the signal.
David
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Irish Steve
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Joined: Thu 09 Dec 2010 4:01 pm
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by Irish Steve »

Yup, Tile roof, then 2 floors, though there's not a lot of blockwork in the line between the sender and receiver, so I'm hoping that it's just the batteries are weak, if it's not, then getting it to perform could be "interesting", based on earlier experience at other locations. I have a suspicion that the plasterboard may well be foil backed, which won't be helping signal propagation any!

I will try some lithium cells and see what difference that makes, before we go too mad in other directions.

Thanks
Irish Steve

Shore, if twas easy, we'd all be doin it
cutter
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by cutter »

Extend the cables and bring the transmitter to just outside the window this is what I did but for a different reason also makes changing the batteries easy.Alan
jim-easterbrook
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by jim-easterbrook »

If the transmitter is almost directly above the receiver (which is how it sounds from the description) then each could be in or near a null in the other's aerial response. Try tilting the transmitter and receiver away from their normal positions and see if that makes a difference.
Jim
Irish Steve
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by Irish Steve »

cutter wrote:Extend the cables and bring the transmitter to just outside the window this is what I did but for a different reason also makes changing the batteries easy.Alan
That's beginning to look like an option, I was forgetting that I've got a crimp tool for RJ11's so not the most difficult task in the world, or even just extending them with Gel Crimps is an option.

Long cables is not so attractive, but if it's the difference between it working or not working, then whatever it takes.

Thanks, that's a good way round the issue.
Irish Steve

Shore, if twas easy, we'd all be doin it
Irish Steve
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu 09 Dec 2010 4:01 pm
Weather Station: WH1081
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by Irish Steve »

jim-easterbrook wrote:If the transmitter is almost directly above the receiver (which is how it sounds from the description) then each could be in or near a null in the other's aerial response. Try tilting the transmitter and receiver away from their normal positions and see if that makes a difference.
Jim,

There's an offset of probably about 4 metres horizontally, so it's not quite as likely, I will try playing with the base station angle to see if changing that makes any difference, there's not a lot I can do with the sender right now, the owner is away for several weeks, and I'm not about to go roof climbing without someone else there for safety, it's a LONG way up and down.

Thanks for the idea, it may well be an aspect of it.

Best regards
Irish Steve

Shore, if twas easy, we'd all be doin it
uncle_bob
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by uncle_bob »

Here's a picture of a vertical dipole radiation pattern. It's shows what Jim means.
So add some walls, floors, roof and ceiling and there's probably not much signal left for the receiver to pick up.
Image
Interested in building your own Weather Station? Maybe check out the WeatherDuino Pro Project Here
Conder, Canberra Weather
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Irish Steve
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Joined: Thu 09 Dec 2010 4:01 pm
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by Irish Steve »

uncle_bob wrote:Here's a picture of a vertical dipole radiation pattern. It's shows what Jim means.
So add some walls, floors, roof and ceiling and there's probably not much signal left for the receiver to pick up.
Image
Yup, that's what I was afraid of, for the site that this is on, it really needs to be a vertical orientation, rather than horizontal, and that's not likely to be easy.

I suspect that the simplest answer is going to be to make up a modified cable to connect to the transmitter, and move it to a more suitable location relative to the base station. Oh Joy!

Thanks
Irish Steve

Shore, if twas easy, we'd all be doin it
AllyCat
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by AllyCat »

Hi,
cutter wrote:Extend the cables and bring the transmitter to just outside the window this is what I did but for a different reason also makes changing the batteries easy.Alan
Yes, I agree, not just for more convenient access, but the temperature and rain measurements could be significantly more accurate. The "recommended" heights for temperature and rain sensors are less than 6 feet above the ground, but "under the eaves" can be a reasonable compromise. The Fine Offset (Maplin) "Sun Shield" (so called) really needs to be mounted away from any direct sunshine.

What type of rechargeables were you planning to use? A pair of NiMH will only deliver about 2.5 volts, around the point where the "Low TX Battery" icon is likely to come on. If range is an issue then (as suggested above) use a pair of non-rechargeable Lithium AA cells which should deliver in excess of 3.0 volts over their (very long) life. Or if your heart is set on recharging, then try to get a single "Lithium Iron Phosphate" (LiFePO4) AA cell and a "placeholder" (dummy, short-circuit) cell which together will deliver a reasonably stable 3.2 volts. LiFePO4 AAs are often sold are replacements for Solar Garden lights (including from Maplin), but for capacities above about 400 mAh you probably have to import directly from China/HK via ebay (as I have done). ;)

Actually, neither the antenna in the transmitter nor receiver is strictly a "vertical monopole" (whip). The transmitter uses a "tuned loop" (on the circuit board) and the receiver antenna is better described as "a bit of bent wire", usually more horizontal than vertical (see the sticky "photos of..." threads in the FO section). However, the majority of FO stations probably don't get close to their claimed 100+ metres range (even "open field"), and I have equally had "issues" with signals which can be described loosely as "running along (or alongside) a wall".

Cheers, Alan.
Irish Steve
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu 09 Dec 2010 4:01 pm
Weather Station: WH1081
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by Irish Steve »

Alan,

As originally planned, the remote is a pain to get to, but that's the way these things work out, I was trying to "persuade" the user to put it somewhere more accessible, based on my own experience of things like spiders in the rain system, changing batteries, and general aggravations with other issues, such as reed switches failing on the anemometer, the problem being that his real interest is the wind direction and strength, there's a longer term interest in a wind generator, so some history to see if it's going to work is the main reason for putting the station up. That means putting the wind side of things where the building won't have too much influence.

My thinking on batteries is indeed to use 1 x LiFeP04, with a dummy cell, simply to get the best possible voltage. I use them in other radio gear, and they are very good. I've used a different concept on my own station at home, I have a mains power unit, with backup dry cells behind a diode so that if the mains drops out, the stations stays alive for the short period until the standby power kicks in. That's worked well for me, but the downside of that is a wire up to the sender, which is not easy to hide or secure.

The whole temperature shield aspect of these stations is a joke, my own is much modified to reduce the overheating aspects, and I've also done several other mods, the rain gauge has a lot more protection to reduce the spider issues, and I've balanced the wind speed and direction sensors to reduce the problems of inaccurate readings.

That's the great thing about the forum, there's always someone that's either had experience of the issue, or has an idea that's different from mine, and both are valid.

I shall have to sit down with the user and discuss the options, there are several, and we'll take it from there.

Thanks for the ideas.
Irish Steve

Shore, if twas easy, we'd all be doin it
cutter
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by cutter »

Hi I also have a La Crosse WS2800 that has a solar powered wind direction and speed unit fixed on a long pole to the chimney stack been there two years now, it also has the rain and temperature of course. Alan
jim-easterbrook
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by jim-easterbrook »

Irish Steve wrote:That's the great thing about the forum, there's always someone that's either had experience of the issue, or has an idea that's different from mine, and both are valid.
Just wanted to say something like "amen brother" to that. But I need a non-religious equivalent, and <aol>me too</aol> doesn't cut the mustard.
Jim
Charlie
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by Charlie »

Irish Steve wrote: My thinking on batteries is indeed to use 1 x LiFeP04, with a dummy cell, simply to get the best possible voltage. I use them in other radio gear, and they are very good. I've used a different concept on my own station at home, I have a mains power unit, with backup dry cells behind a diode so that if the mains drops out, the stations stays alive for the short period until the standby power kicks in. That's worked well for me, but the downside of that is a wire up to the sender, which is not easy to hide or secure.
The "transmitter" actually contains sensors as well as the transmitter. The transmitter range is directly proportional to battery voltage. The sensors are calibrated for 3.0V and may be damaged above 3.3V, so any replacement power source should be as close as possible to 3.0 V and under no circumstances exceed 3.3 V.

LiFePO4 is nominal 3.4V and charges at 3.6V so bad idea - you will have errors in some sensors and could seriously damage the unit.
NiMH (pair) is nominal 2.4V so worse idea - incorrect sensors and lower range.
Alkaline or Lithium are just right - you'd almost think it was designed for them. Oh wait..
AllyCat
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Re: Maplin station range issue

Post by AllyCat »

Hi,

Hmm, I think you're rather over-estimating the quality and accuracy of FO's "design". :)
Charlie wrote:... under no circumstances exceed 3.3 V.
But many users strongly recommend using a pair of (non-rechargeable) Lithium AA cells and these have an open-circuit voltage of up to 1.83 volts when fresh, i.e. 3.65 volts for a pair. See, for example, page 3 of the Energiser Data Manual direct download here. Sorry, I can't paste a quote because the .PDF manual seems to be coded in a strange (graphic?) format.

Conversely, LiFePO4 cells are normally rated at only 3.2 volts. But perhaps they shouldn't be used immediately after removing from a charger, and probably do need a regulator if "floated" from a PV panel.

Also, sometimes NiMH cells may be a better choice than Alkalines, apart from the high self-leakage current of standard types. Their relatively constant 1.2 volts may give more stable operation (with measurements calibrated within Cumulus if required), whilst the voltage from Alkalines decays moderately linearly, i.e. from 1.6 volts per cell down to their nominal end of life at 0.9 volts (but the FO Low TX battery icon should activate first at about 2.4 volts). IMHO it may be better to get the wireless link working properly at 2.4 volts, rather than start having "issues" after a few months when Alkalines lose their "freshness".

Cheers, Alan.
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